Veloce engines starting with part number 1315.10.768

Update 6/23/12: Sold for $7100.

Original post 5/23/12: 12 hours later:  I just added a bunch of information at the end.  Read it again if you found the first draft interesting.

I see a lot of talk about Veloce engines on the AlfaBB and the 750/101 Yahoo group.  Some crusty pile that has a Veloce serial number is pulled out of a bog and the seller carpet bombs the lists looking for a Veloce engine as close to original number as possible.  Old time hoarders are rewarded for moth balling these gems, but what will the future look like?  I bring it up because there is a late 750 Veloce engine on eBay right now, number 1315*31525, that looks great and is receiving a lot of attention.  Look at the picture and add it up.  How much is enough to get it all at once?

Okay, so maybe it is a moth balled 40 years original low miles engine.  Could be a bitsa, but who really cares?  You’ve got a 58 Sprint/Spider Veloce that needs an engine: here it is.  Nice headers!

Okay, say you do have a 58 Sprint with a void where the engine once resided.  How do you put a value on this engine that completes the circle?  Was a time when engine numbers didn’t matter to Alfa guys a whole lot.  I know a local guy running a 2 liter in a lightweight Sprint -was put in when it didn’t matter very much -now, no one would waste the effort since the car is worth so much more with the right engine.  I think that that is the answer.  How much more is a Veloce worth with the right vs wrong engine?  20%?  30%?  It’s a personal question that is answered by your motivations for building the car.  I’m going to start the negotiation at 20%.

Lucas or Marelli – looks Lucas or aluminum body Bosch to me.  Alas, where are the DCO3’s??

The correct stamp font.  Learn how it looks.  Know it.

20% you say?  So the implication is that if this engine, with this stamped number was in a restored 1958 Sprint Veloce that was worth $100,000, the same car, in the same condition with an equally well put together running engine that was stamped 1315*01525, would be worth $80,000?  Yes.  20% is an arbitrary number, but probably is within the error bars.  Does that make this block worth $20,000 (or whatever % you chose to apply) to the right person?  I couldn’t say, but I’ll look through auction results and see if I can find a correlation.

Another number to make the heart flutter.  What is the difference in value of a Giulia SS with vs without the right engine? This lump is filling a void in my closet right now waiting for a place to be.

I bring this all up because of the engine on eBay and because I am thinking I want to build an 00106 or 00120 engine for laughs and as a documentation project.  I have a lot of the parts squirreled away but need a block.  Maybe an 00121 block can be traded for such a thing?  Should I?

I think the SS buying public is pretty tolerant of the lack of an 00120 block -they were high strung and fragile compared to the value of the car in 1973, so many went astray in efforts to keep the commuter SS doing duty, and in the intervening years SZ owners have been snapping them up.  I don’t think this is the case with the Giulia’s.  No reason to not have an 00121.  I am forced to wonder about the fate of the car that this fell out of.

In case you’re wondering, Alfa made*:

3000 750 Veloce blocks: 1315*30001 – 1315*33000

– Part number 1315.10.768 spans 30001 – 32469

– Part number 1315.10.769 covers 32470 – 33000 (what did they change?? Are these the Veloce equivalent of the 1315.0XXXXX engines found in very early 101’s?  Greig?)

3257 101 Sprint and Spider Veloce 1300 blocks: 00106*00001 – 00106*03257

– Part number 101.06.01.010.01 covers the 00106 blocks

1576 101 1300 Sprint Speciale and Zagato blocks: 00120*00001 – 00120*01576

– Part number 101.20.01.010.01 covers 00120*00001 – 00120*00200.  I have read that these were much like the 750 Veloce blocks.  Perhaps a modified and renumbered version of 1315.10.769?  The specifications list has these making 11 more hp than a ‘strandard’ Veloce engine.

– Part number 101.20.01.010.03 covers 00120*00201 – 00120*01576  These are likely a modified and renumbered version of the 00106 blocks.  Where’d the extra 11 hp come from?  Decking alone?

2490 101 1600 Sprint Speciale and Spider Veloce blocks: 00121*00001 – 00121*02490**

– Part number 101.21.01.010.03.  No changes noted in the part number through the run, which is odd since they were developing some potent 105 based stuff at this point (TZ2, GTA, TI Super etc), and you would think there would be some trickle down (or over) if developments were happening.  That said, this is also the era of the last gasp of the 101, so maybe there was no point in rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic…

*These numbers may be slightly off, but not by much.  If you are offered 00120*98432, it’s probably a fake!

**It’s worth noting that Fusi lists 1600 Spider Veloce’s as having 00118 blocks.  These don’t exist!  That said I bet a few have spontaneously germinated in restoration shops in misguided efforts aimed at correctness.  Makes sense really, 1399 Giulia SS’s + 1091 1600 Spider Veloce’s equals 2490 engines.  Know your engine stamping font ‘signature’.  There should be no question.  I get asked about anomalies like engine number stampings, Veloce’s without ‘E’ or ‘F’ etc and I usually say that if they are seeking reassurance on something that doesn’t seem right, so will the next guy, and the internet through efforts by such as YT here, is going to make clearer and clearer what’s original and what’s not and you suddenly don’t want to find yourself on the side of the ‘not original, but trying to pass as so’.

This isn’t meant as a value guide or anything like that, I’m just thinking about how there seems to be a lot more cars without the right blocks coming on the market than blocks, which is odd since one would expect in the event of terminal body rust that the engine would be saved.  Maybe they were and it’s just easier to forget about a crusty engine under those boxes of college text books and that Stair Master than a whole car…

Anyone have an 00106 for me?  I’ll buy you an ice cream…


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13 thoughts on “Veloce engines starting with part number 1315.10.768

  1. Interesting essay on a pertinent subject. For students of the subject of Giuliettas/ Giulias, more posts discussing the nuance of technical details relative to model variation helps those focused on correctness and authenticity. Your depth of knowlege is really helpful. Thank you, Matt.

      • Hi, I am looking at a 58 Sprint Veloce in Europe and know basically nothing about Sprints. I have several originality questions that I need knowledgeable answers to quickly before I pull the trigger. If you or anyone you know might be able to help me PLEASE email me or call me at 336 644=1918 NC asap. I’m going to need to get tied in with the people that know these cars if I buy it and any advice in that regard would be appreciated. Thanks, Don

  2. I dunno Matt, I think the $20K increased value would mean a rebuilt engine with all the little extras, so I would value this as “half way” to that increased value.

    My impression is that Mille Miglia eligibility means a lot. If this were a 1957, I’d buy it just to support my fantasy of going some day.

    As an aside, I sold Harry a boatload of 750 parts back in 1979. It included three engines, one I pulled from the 6th Giulietta made (he got everything else from parting that car as well) and another was a Veloce. He also got my vast collection of motor mounts and eyebrows (I don’t remember how I got so many of those things in such a short time).

    • George,

      I’m talking the same exact engine build, one with the ‘right’ number and one with the ‘wrong’. I can’t find evidence of value shift in my files, but I’ve been too busy working on Sprints to search much.

      I’ve got a LOT of motor mounts and, well, so do you! Want a picture… there are 8 or 10 in a box.

      Where’s #6 stuff now? Scattered like the ashes I suppose.

      Matt

  3. Matt, great research. Ref. the change of block number at 1315*32470 ~ I think it’s when they went back to a steel sump (oil pan), which has oil pump pickup lugs on the centre main cap, so requires a new part number for the block sub-assembly. Elsewhere in the parts manual is a long ‘change’ list of parts for replacing the steel sump with the 2-piece aluminuim one; the steel sump got deleted for some reason, again referring to engines after 32470. I have engine 32914 (very late) with the original steel sump & 2-lug centre main cap. The engine in my low-nose SS is AR00120*00064. These engines are pure 750 series; the main differences from the std. Veloce engines are the decked block (approx, 0.8 mm) & tighter valve clearance settings. It doesn’t sound like 10 hp extra from those changes. My head has been ported (inlet ports only) from new & I’m trying to find out if all Vecloce heads were ported (3000 hand ported heads sounds like a lot of work) or just the 00120 versions. The SS & Veloce head part number is the same, so that suggested they were all ported (or that a replacement head for your SS wasn’t !!). After engine #200 they become 101 series Veloces, co-inciding with production of the high-nose SS cars,

    • Chris,

      Interesting points. I always figured the early SS engine’s were basically 750 engines with 00120 numbers. My Sprint had a steel Veloce oil pan seemingly from new -now gathering dust in my dads garage -probably destined for eBay some day. Got pictures of your 00120 apart? Would be interesting to share.

      Matt

  4. Matt,

    Two additions to the discussion.

    My 750D was racerized back in the day by the transplant of a veloce engine, AR1315*31716. That block succumbed to bilateral perforations from a broken rod (after only 40 years of racing service) so it can be listed as RIP.

    Another racerizing feature was a pair of “GTA” camshafts numbered 101210320001. So maybe the 101.21 Giulia Veloce numbering system carried over into some 105 cars.

    If anyone needs the camshafts with those part numbers let me know. The lobes are worn.

    Cheers,

    Sid

    • Thanks. Got the air box today -looks good. I have a pair of wing nut’s but now that I have them in the same hand they’re not a pair…

      Now I just need my 00106 block and an air box.

      What do you want for those cams? I’ve been looking for an interesting set to make into pittatore cams.

      I’ll take that block too -I know some good welders!

      Matt

  5. Matt,
    I sold my 0010106 101 Veloce spare block last year because it had a spun main bearing. I have a 101 1300 SV with an engine number 0010106 02336. I think that using a Normal block in a Veloce car will decrease the value maybe as much as 20%. The same holds true for a 1600, 1750 or 2000 engine in a 101 1300 car will decrease the value unless the car is used for racing or rallying.

    John

  6. Hello, is possible to know the engine number 1315 200164 where was installed ?
    ( Alfa romeo Giulietta spider, sprint, berlina and normale or veloce?)
    Thanks a lot!
    Carlo

    • Someone blew the original motor. Factory replacements – usually within warranty period were blank short-blocks. I’ve had one or two over the years. I expect there was probably a window of opportunity when blank blocks could be ordered from Alfa too.

      Thanks,
      Matt

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