Market #33: Giulietta Spider… Veloce?… Veloce!

Reserve not met! Auction ended the second time around at $9100, I guess the repeated listing curse has struck.  I imagine the seller will regroup, make some small changes to the car then relist it in a few months when the general public has forgotten about it.

Relisted: The car is back on ebay due to a non-paying high bidder. The seller has added to the description a scan of a response from the Alfa Romeo Archive stating without caveat that the car is a Giulietta Spider Veloce. Will a relist with solid documentation take this auction higher than the first selling price or will the eBay repeated listing low-price curse strike? I anticipate the former. Veloces are special and with a little, ok, well, a lot of work this car will be fantastic.

Update: Car sold for $14,100 which is at the lower end of my speculation, but considering the expense of getting a 750 Veloce engine together this is probably a good price. As always, we’ll see if the sale sticks. I am thinking Sprints might be more popular than Spiders right now based on recent eBay results.

Giulietta Spider 10125 1495*(F)10203, Engine 1315*44059 (not original). This car is available now on eBay, another neat Giulietta project from the seller in Newport Beach who sold several of the Sprints I have written about. This car is being sold as a Veloce and has several physical characteristics of a Veloce but based on the numbers there is some legitimate doubt as to whether it is truly a Veloce.

There are a lot of VERY enthusiastic Alfa people out there whose primary interest and first love are Giulietta Spider’s, especially Veloce’s, and if you are seriously considering this car and looking for guidance, you may want to check out the AlfaBB (link is to a discussion of this car) or join the 750/101 Yahoo group to track some of them down and get their opinions.

This Spider almost looks like a wax and go in this picture. Dent in the nose is not too bad and it doesn’t seem to have affected the trim which all looks pretty good. I like the baby blue.

The back of the car looks very straight but I would check the inside of the trunk lid for accident damage since these cars are very low and parking bumps in this area are common, and unfortunately hard to fix correctly. All the trim is present and with the exception of the bumper center looks good.

Being convertibles and having no factory rust preventative coatings other than paint, Giulietta Spiders are particularly prone to rust. This may look like a simple patch job is all that’s required, but you can bet there is 3 times as much rust to fix as can be seen. In addition to these lower rocker corners, the parcel area behind the seats and the trunk corners seem to rust the worst.

This trunk corner doesn’t look so bad, but assume it will need some patching. If the trunk floor rusts through above the frame rails water will travel down the rail and rust it out at its lowest point, usually right where it begins its arch over the rear axle. Over-spray on the battery cables tells me the car has been repainted.

Engine number stated corresponds to a 1958 Spider Normale, which makes sense given what can be seen in the picture above. Seller states that the engine turns over and everything is in a state that makes him think it would run with a fuel system flush and minor tune-up. In my experience, he’s probably right. Note missing air-box.

Fusi’s production numbers and ranges are generally regarded as the authority when it comes to identifying and dating Alfa’s from this period, but are known to have omissions and errors. This car requires both omissions and errors for it’s seeming Veloce status to be accepted. According to Fusi the car is definitely a 1960 based on both the Autotelaio number 1495*10203 and the Motore type 00106, which was first used for Veloce’s in 1960. The error is that Fusi states that the range 1495*10203 falls in is for a 1960 Spider Normale of series 101.03 but the build plate on the car, which looks original and correct to me, states a series 10125, the omission. I will note here that my Sprint is a series 10105, also not listed in Fusi, a precedent if you will of a series omission in Fusi’s list.The car is a Veloce if the physical characteristics in the pictures below are correct, namely the ‘F’ stamped on the firewall, the intake divider in the drivers side intake and the boss for the Veloce engine movement rubber bump stop.

Here’s what I think: Between mid-1958 and the end of 1960 as Alfa and Pininfarina (and Bertone with the Sprint) worked together to transform the two 750 series models to two 101 series models, normale and Veloce. This would have been a simple matter if an equal number of 750 floor-pans, bodies and engines had been made between Alfa, Pininfarina and Bertone, but this was not the case. The floor pans were redesigned and lengthened, the bodies were changed to accommodate the lengthening and changes to grills and tail lights and the engines were redesigned. A different series was required to capture each possible combination, of which there are logically six.

My guess at the possible combinations in general form with the combination this car seems to represent in red:

750 Normale: 750 (short) floor pan and corresponding body, 750 series 1315 prefixed engine.

750 Veloce: 750 (short) floor pan and corresponding body, 750 series 1315*3 prefixed Veloce engine

101xx Normale: 750 (short) floor pan and corresponding body, 101 series 1315 prefixed engine (750 based)

101xx Veloce: 750 (short) floor pan and corresponding body, 101 series 00106 prefixed Veloce engine

101xx Normale: 101 floor pan and corresponding body, 101 series 0010X prefixed engine

101xx Veloce: 101 floor pan and corresponding body, 101 series 00106 prefixed Veloce engine

The first two combinations would have been dropped first as they represent all the old parts together. The next two combinations ended when the 1495* bodies were used up. Any left-over 750 stuff was probably reworked to be used on Giulietta TI’s and Berlina’s or put into spares. I’m working on a discussion of the transitions for a later ‘Identification’ blog entry.

1495*10203 corresponds to a 1960 Spider Normale in Fusi’s book. The ‘F’ stamped above it designates it as a Veloce.

Unknown series 10125, Normale Autotelaio and Veloce Motore. What could go wrong.

The proof is in the pudding they say and this boss was only added to Veloce chassis’. A rubber bump stop was added to keep the oil pan from hitting the frame rails and the headers from hitting the pedal box and surrounding items.

The divider seen here diverts air into a duct, the duct cross-section shrinks, pressurizing the intake charge as it sends it over the engine and into the twin Webers. A Veloce only modification.

I’ve seen better and much worse. Everything is there and probably needs work. Giulietta seats are typically about $1000 a pair for cores that need attention.

Spider Veloce values are all over the place. Early 750 F Veloce’s are the most valuable and restored examples can top $60,000. Correctly restored Interim and Giulia 1600 Veloce’s range from $40,000 to $60,000 depending on characteristics all those mysterious market forces. Projects are a little harder to value, until they are in your garage and you have a list of expensive missing parts you are guessing how much they’re worth. Body, paint, chrome, interior and engine to make this car ‘restored’ will probably be about $30 – 35,000. That means this cars selling range should be $10,000 – $25,000. I like this car. If I bought it I would stabilize the rust, bring the engine to life, do the brakes and drive it. Over the years I would fix up the interior as I gather the missing 00106 Veloce engine bits and anything else it needs and once I had everything I would repair the rust, get it painted and return it to Veloce spec.

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